Our guest today is Ben Gray, a Sustainability Initiatives Coordinator at Imperial College London. After graduating from Chemistry, Ben went on to work at P&G as an analytical scientist, where he started to understand the environmental impact of labs. Now, combining his background and previous experience, he is promoting sustainable practices across 1,000+ university labs.

We discuss what lab sustainability means and why it’s important, especially as funders are increasingly demanding it these days! Ben also explains his routine, the sustainable standards he works with - Lab Efficiency Assessment Framework (LEAF) - and highlights an essential quality for promoting sustainability initiatives across all sectors: being kind and friendly!

For a book that serves as a starting point and foundational knowledge about our changing climate, Ben recommends The Climate Book. When it comes to climate-friendly food, we exchange our curry recipes with vegetarian twists: Ben’s butter ‘chicken’ with sweet potatoes and Yongsi’s katsu curry with Quorn nuggets.

Listen to the podcast or read the transcript below.

Yongsi: So Ben, I know you recently took part in the Royal Regatta. How was it?

Ben: Oh, it was good. I usually train all year for it and it's like the peak of the year. But this time, it was with some old university friends. We only started training like two months before. We only got on the water to train as well for... sessions, so very limited time. We were just under two seconds off of qualifying this year, so we were quite happy. Henley Royal Regatta is the big one and we had good fun. It's given me the bug to get going again now with full training.

Yongsi: Correct me if I'm wrong, but for rowing, it's not just about personal fitness. And if you're doing it as a group, synchronisation is also very important, right?

Ben: Absolutely. We had the synchronisation but we did not have the fitness, so yeah. This is okay. The fitness takes a lot of time.

Yongsi: How do you train for synchronisation?

Ben: There's somebody sitting in the boat. He just shouts through a microphone at us, telling us when to go hard, some technique and things that we can work on. This is better than music most of the time. It depends who's shouting at you.

Yongsi: So that guy is also like a coordinator, a bit like you.

Ben: Yeah, like a manager almost.

Yongsi: Can you give us some details about your job as a Sustainability Initiatives Coordinator at Imperial College?

Ben: Essentially what I do day to day is run initiatives for our staff and students to do, which allows them to act more sustainable in the research or the studying that they do. A big focus of mine is on lab sustainability initiatives. We have one called LEAF in particular, which stands for the Lab Efficiency Assessment Framework. It just gives people in the lab a chance to act more sustainably with what they do.

Yongsi: That's very interesting. I think as we have experienced during COVID with a lot of challenges with plastic pollution. So is it similar to a university lab?

Ben: Yeah, it absolutely is. There is a very interesting statistic about plastics in laboratories that globally scientists make a very small proportion of people, like less than 1% of the population, but they consume in the laboratory 2% of global plastic use. It doesn't sound like a lot, but when you consider all of the plastic in the world, it's a considerable amount. It was actually interesting, during the COVID pandemic, that in a lot of labs at the place I was working before, we struggled to buy things like syringes and pipette tips, which we usually use on a common basis, because there was a global shortage of this. But yeah, plastics in particular, there is a high usage of them in the lab and that's why acting sustainably is an important thing to do.

Yongsi: And other than plastic, what other challenges do you need to tackle in your job?

Ben: The other thing in the lab space is energy. Labs typically consume about three to ten times more energy than an office space, depending on what sorts of lab it is and what sorts of research they do. Labs can be full of a whole wide range of equipment, such as freezers with ultra low temperature. These are historically set at minus 80 degrees. Each one of these freezers can use as much energy as a home's worth in the UK, so a two to three bedroom house has the same energy consumption as one freezer…

Yongsi: Oh, wow.

Ben: … which is quite considerable. At Imperial, I don't know the exact number, but we have hundreds of these dotted around our medicine labs, around our life sciences. There really is a lot of energy that we use. And that's just on freezers. When you add in things like fume cupboards - each fume cupboard that exists in the world consumes about three and a half homes worth of energy every day. Again, some of our departments like Chemistry will have hundreds of these fume cupboards. So the energy very, very quickly adds up. And they're just two examples of the equipment and things that we use in the lab.

Yongsi: On one hand, you have two main challenges, waste and energy. But on the other hand, labs also need to stick to certain safety standards. How do you strike a balance between these two?

Ben: Of course. We've already spoken about the COVID pandemic. Obviously scientists were a big reason of us getting out of the pandemic. And for the world to progress, science is such an important thing. My personal background actually is in chemistry. I graduated from the University of Nottingham with a master's in chemistry and then went on to work in industry as an analytical chemist. There's no doubt that science has a really important role to play in advancing society. However, as we said, it does consume a lot of energy, but also the good point that you made, Yongsi, is that there's safety things that we need to be sure of as well.

There certainly are limitations to what we can do. We need the minus 80 freezers to do the research. We need our fume cupboards to be safe to do the research as well. But there are surprisingly many actions that we can take that do not compromise on the quality of the research we do and also don't compromise on the safety of the work that we do. The fume cupboards, for example, as we discussed before, each one uses three and a half homes worth of energy, but there's a safety sash that sits in front of it, which is like a glass, which actually is there for safety reasons as well. Just by closing this safety sash when the fume cupboards are not in use can save 30% of the energy. That’s already a house's worth that you're saving there. So there are some real easy actions that people can take from energy, for plastics, for water saving as well that do not compromise the quality or the safety of the laboratory work that needs to take place.

Yongsi: It's about changing your habits, isn't it? It's like closing the fridge door at the supermarket.

Ben: Yeah, it's very much a behaviour change, which is a lot of where my role plays into it really is encouraging and trying to implement processes and actions that give that behavioural change.

Yongsi: Can you give us some examples of the typical tasks that you get up to on, let's say, a weekly basis?

Ben: First and foremost, my primary responsibility is running these programmes that we have. At Imperial, we offer three different programmes which I run. Green Impact, which focuses very much on office spaces. Then we have LEAF, as we've discussed a bit more, and My Green Lab, which are two initiatives that people can do in the lab. What running these entails is keeping a big old database to understand who is signed up across the university and who still isn't, so I know who to ask to get involved so that we can reach our targets of 100% awards across the whole of Imperial.

It also involves going and doing a lot of public presentations as well. Just last week, I went to the Department of Chemistry to do a big lecture talking all about sustainable labs, explaining what LEAF is, how people can get involved and the actions that people can take to really make a difference in their space. That's a really rewarding part as I quite like talking.

And what else? I also go to some of our labs who have submitted an application. Within LEAF, there are a number of actions that people can take. The first 16 are more basic and normal things that a lab is doing and a few sustainability actions. So there's 16 to start with, and that can get them the bronze award. Then there's a further 17 actions, which are a bit harder and they get you the silver. And then there's a further 16 to get that gold award, which is a really top level sustainability lab. Once people submit an application, I tend to go to the labs and do a quick audit of them. If they claim that their fume cupboards are closed x percent of the time, I can go there and I can check to see if their fume cupboards are closed. They will be able to show me their plastic savings that they've made.

One of our departments in the Faculty of Medicine has recently done this really great initiative to reduce the amount of plastic that they use, where essentially they have a structured system to ensure that there's no contamination in the plastic.  but they're also able to rewash and reuse certain items. That was all on their own back and it was a really fantastic initiative. I get to go and I get to learn and see our great teams. That's a really rewarding part as well.

Yongsi: You mentioned LEAF a few times when you talked about sustainable lab standards. Can you tell us more about it?

Ben: LEAF is now a very widely accredited framework. There are multiple universities across the UK that run and use it. There are some universities out there, and I'll highlight the University of Bristol for the great work that they do, who have got the whole of their university at a bronze level. I know that they're now working on the whole university for a silver level.  There's some really fantastic examples out there of what people do.

LEAF is very much UK wide. And actually one big development that there's been in the last couple of months is that some of our funding bodies are starting to ask for our labs to have a LEAF or My Green Lab. Now this makes my job a bit easier because I'm no longer the person saying, oh, you guys, you can be more sustainable. Look at this amazing program that we have. I'm now in a position where I can help people get funded. That's a really fantastic step forward.

Yongsi: I wonder why would funders want the lab to be more sustainable?

Ben: It's a very good question, and I do know the answer.

I'm sure a lot of the listeners will know about scope 1, 2 and 3 emissions, but I'll just quickly break it down just for a bit of context. The scopes are for greenhouse gases, which are always reported as carbon dioxide equivalent. For any organisation, this is a real way to understand how much carbon they use. They're broken into three scopes. Scope 1 is the amount of gas or petrol that you burn, essentially. For Imperial, this is mainly the gas that we burn to heat our buildings, for example. Scope 2 is very much about the electricity that you purchase off the grid. There's of course some embodied carbon in that depending on how the grid is producing the electricity, be it coal, be it gas, be it renewables. That number is slowly coming down as a national average and will be zero I believe by 2050 if not earlier. And then everything else is in scope 3, which includes travel, but also includes any emissions on the things that we purchase. It's essentially emissions that aren't directly caused by the organisation but are related to it.

The reason - this is a very roundabout way of saying the reason - that funders are so interested in our labs being more sustainable is because part of the funders’ scope 3 is all of the universities across the country, which as you can imagine is a very, very big number. So they want to try and reduce this as much as they can and they see LEAF as a really fantastic way to do it. I have also spoken to some of our funders and they have very dedicated sustainability teams and it's very important for them as well. So it's an important item for everybody really.

Yongsi: Well, you're certainly in a stronger position when you have the funders behind your back. I think lab sustainability also makes a lot of sense beyond the climate narrative. For example, as we discussed earlier about striking a balance between sustainability and lab safety or security, you don't want your lab to run out of equipment, especially during special periods like COVID. If it's possible to reuse things, your stock can last longer, right? Coming from my not-so-professional perspective.

Ben: No, absolutely. Now, there are obviously conflicts, and there's no negotiation on safety. But as you say, actually, during the COVID pandemic, where there were shortages of some of our single-use plastics, the Faculty of Medicine lab that I was talking about was absolutely fine. They had tons of stock of things that have been used once and could be used again because of their washing procedure. And everyone else in the faculty was going, I hear they have some available plastics. We need to go and ask if we can borrow them. So yeah, there really are synergies.

Yongsi: I hope those departments actually learn a thing or two from the Medicine Department on how to make the equipment last longer.

Ben: Very much so. And talking not only safety, but economically, as you say, making equipment last longer. If you can treat our - I can't think of another piece of equipment off the top of my head, but - our incubators, the more that we take care of them, the longer they'll last and the less money we'll ever have to spend buying new ones. There really are a lot of synergies with economics, with social, with safety and with sustainability. It's really great that they exist.

Yongsi: Do you get to share your experience or learn from other universities?

Ben: Yeah, so there's a big partnership actually between sustainability in the higher education sector, which is really refreshing. I've already mentioned some of the other universities and the great work that they do. There are certain conferences that we're able to attend. I recently went to the EAUC, which is essentially the UK base of all universities talking about sustainability. I learned some really fantastic things about the way that other universities are doing things. It was also quite satisfying to hear some of the challenges that we're all facing, but also to hear how some people have dealt with those challenges. It surprised me how open the community is. It's really refreshing. So yeah, there's a lot of help out there.

Yongsi: That's awesome. I mean, teamwork is always better. So let's wind back a little bit. How did you get from studying chemistry to working at Imperial right now?

Ben: I studied Chemistry as a route to sustainability. I wasn't quite sure how or where, but I knew I liked science and I knew that science could play a big part in sustainability some way or other. In my final year's research project, I focused on lithium sulphur batteries, which of course we know battery technology is deemed as one of the great things that can help us to reach net zero carbon and to reduce the pollution. So this was something I did because I was interested in sustainability as well.

Once I graduated, I didn't manage to get on any graduate schemes that I wanted to. Essentially, I saw this role for an analytical scientist at Procter & Gamble. I thought, oh, that looks quite good. I'll apply for that. Although it was not really focused on sustainability at all at first, I love the job. I was in research and development, very much focusing on chromatography. I spent a really great four years there.

Whilst I was there, I came across My Green Lab, which was the other sustainable lab initiative that I mentioned earlier. When I saw this, I was like, wow, our labs really do use a lot of energy, a lot of plastic, a lot of water, as we've already said. Although it wasn't quite where I saw my path going - I went to study chemistry to be more sustainable - it actually became my knowledge of chemistry meant that I understood labs and made labs more sustainable.

So I did a bit of sustainable lab initiative for my department whilst I was at P&G. Then I saw this opportunity at Imperial, essentially to do it on a big scale, from my one department lab to the 1,435. I saw it as a big challenge. That's when I made the step to have a look and explore what this was like.

One thing I would like to reflect on is that I made that move to have a greater impact on sustainability, which I very much feel like I have. But there is also a big importance for those people who sustainability is a part of their role. Actually there's a big impact you can have in that sphere as well. Now I've got the joy of sustainability being everything that I do. But in my previous role where sustainability was about 10 percent, there's still a big impact that you can have on the teams that you work with. That's my journey to where I am now.

Yongsi: Wow. What a wonderful journey. So from a role of 10% in sustainability to full-on, do you need to take part in any training or any, or learn any new skills?

Ben: The main thing when I started was to really learn and understand what an auditor role does, because I had the experience of being the user and being the person trying to make the changes. But I now had to switch and be the person who checks that the changes are good, that they're long-term, that they're making a difference. So I had some training on the LEAF program to be able to do that auditing process.

Another part of training that I'm doing at the moment, actually this week, is just a very foundational course in environmental management. Although I have a good knowledge of  the impacts on savings you can make and what you can do to be more sustainable, I've not had the back knowledge of understanding things like waste management and things like building controls, which a lot of my colleagues do. So this course, which I started just today, is a good way for me to gain that overriding knowledge or that baseline knowledge of environmental systems and management.

Yongsi: Did you encounter anything unexpected during your career transition?

Ben: Before I did the transition, I was expecting a lot of resistance for the lab sustainability. I thought that lots of people in the lab would go, well, my research is more important than sustainability. I have not felt that backlash once. I've spoken to almost thousands of people on this now, and there's always been such overwhelming positivity on this.

What down days could I think of in the transition? I suppose I have missed working in the lab myself, making those changes. It's quite nice to have your own space that you know and you understand. Whenever I go to these labs and I talk to people about the changes they make, I feel a bit like, oh, I miss doing this myself. But it's beautiful that I get to see and hear so many stories of all of these labs, the hundreds of labs that have already made sustainability differences. There's a little bit of missing being in the lab myself, but it's overcome by the joy of seeing what others get up to.

Yongsi: I think I totally get you by doing these interviews. I was like, oh, that sounds wonderful. I want to do that too.

Ben: Exactly. But it's nice to be able to help encourage other people to make changes as well. That's an important part of the communication and education. They're all important parts as well.

Yongsi: Overall, what kind of skills do you think it needs to be? Not just in your specific role, but also to push sustainability initiatives across different sectors.

Ben: I love this question. The reason why is because since I worked at Imperial, I actually got this amazing chance to go to talk to some of the local school kids about sustainability. They were just turning from primary school to secondary school. And this was all about green skills. What is a green skill? Of course you've got the standard ones like, oh well, engineering is very green and science can be very green. But one of the kids - and they were completely right - said one of the key green skills I've needed is being friendly with other people…

Yongsi: That's cute.

Ben: I think friendliness and positivity are two things which I've really had to lean into, because I think sustainability and the climate crisis and all of this can be quite overwhelming for people. It feels like too large a challenge for one person to make a difference on. I always try and focus on the positive with absolutely everything we do. Often in my presentations, I'll put a doom and gloom slide. I'll just do one, and I'll say these are all the things that consume so much energy in the lab. And then I go, but these are all the amazing things we can do and we can all do it together. I really would say positivity and just kindness and friendliness to other people are the underrated skills.

The other one is just simple communication skills with each other. That very much blends into the first two that I was saying. But the ability to communicate and share stories and share case studies with other people, to take people on the journey with you. Some of our departments have been doing LEAF now for two, three years. Some have started just this year.  The ability to show them other people are in your position, or they've just started, or here's some of their stories is a really impactful way to make people want to make a difference. You've got to hit them with why they should make the difference.

Yongsi: I love that you're discussing green skills with kids, and I also love the answer of being kind and friendly. Do you have any books to recommend, books about sustainability that inspire you?

Ben: One book that I did read but I've never actually finished it. And I can explain why. I'm sure I will finish it one day. It's actually just called The Climate Book. I think it's created by Greta Thunberg. But it's the culmination of all different sciences in a book, basically. Greta actually only writes sort of chapter headings and summaries within. Most of the book is written by academics who have done research. It could be research on environmental policy. It could be research on airborne diseases. It could be research on the amazing actions that have taken place since or geology geography. Really wide range. The book takes you nicely through like an introduction, explaining how our world works and the things that make everything happen. It then explains the past and what has happened, such as the natural occurrences of CO2 going up and down. It then goes through the science of what humans have done recently, and unfortunately why we are in this climate crisis at the moment. Then what we need to do is how it's finished.

Now, I really do recommend it as a book for people. It's a big one. It's not to be read at night time either, because it is very scientific, but that's what I quite like. The reason I've not quite finished it is because some of the parts were really quite hard to read in terms of the inaction at some points and a few tipping points that we know out there. It's hard to read, but it's a great starting point and base knowledge for people who really care about this stuff. I think any listener to this podcast will know that sustainability is important and the climate is important. But that really helps underpin why it's important and what can be done about it. It's a good book and I will finish it.

Yongsi: We'll check on you  and give you a little silver or bronze award.

Ben: That should be a thing. We should have an initiative on reading climate books.

Yongsi: There you go.

Ben: Yes, I like that a lot.

Yongsi: So final question. After we talked so much about food for thought, let's talk about food for soul. What's your favourite dish that's also climate friendly?

Ben: I mean, first and foremost, maybe it's not a sustainable thing, but I absolutely love pizza. I'm not sure if that's the answer to my question, but it's by far my favourite food.

One change I've made recently, which I've really enjoyed, is I used to make, with my fiance, chicken curries. I still eat chicken today and I still enjoy eating it. But one substitution we recently made to cut down a bit on the meat that we have was to switch the chicken for sweet potato. And you know what? I thought I would do it. I was expecting it to be a bit rubbish. I thought this wasn't going to taste very nice. People talk about the texture of meat and that it can't be replicated. But you know what? Sweet potato was a big winner for me in a curry. I don't have any thoughts of turning back. So we have a butter chicken sauce - even though it's not chicken, but it's just a flavour - with chickpeas and sweet potato. And it's absolutely delicious.

Yongsi: I can imagine the flavour must be quite well balanced with the sweetness from the sweet potato and the spiciness and the kick.

Ben: It was a big surprise for me. I'm really glad that we made that change. As I say, I'm never going back.

Yongsi: Can I share one as well?

Ben: Yes, please. I'd love to know.

Yongsi: So speaking of curry, you know, there is the Japanese katsu curry.

Ben: Oh, one of my favourites.

Yongsi: What I do is I replace the chicken with Quorn nuggets. I'm not trying to promote a certain brand here. You can obviously use different kinds of plant-based nuggets, but Quorn nuggets is the one that I use and it works out very well.

Ben: I like the sound of this. I'm a big fan of katsu. I do usually have it with chicken still. But you know what? I've seen a lot of people have it with aubergine recently. A lot of people. Every time I see it, I think I really need to give that a go. So I might try the Quorn nugget and I'm also going to try the aubergine soon, I think.

Yongsi: You can do that. I've actually made this for my brother-in-law. He was just eating. I asked, do you know what you eat? He said, chicken! Chicken? No!

Ben: Brilliant. I might have to take that one on board.

Yongsi: I'm happy to send you the recipe after. But thanks, Ben, for coming on to our show, sharing your insights about lab sustainability and your career journey. It's been a pleasure.

Ben: No, brilliant. Thank you,Yongsi. It's been an absolute pleasure to talk to you. Thanks a lot for this opportunity.

Yongsi: And thanks everyone else for tuning in. Until next time.